How would FC Dallas do in Europe?
By: Robert | August 31st, 2007If there was ever a question to provoke an argument over soccer (football) this is it. People from the “we called it soccer, then we changed our minds and decided to call it football” side of the pond routinely berate anyone who believes MLS’ best could hang with Europe’s worst and while most people on this side ocean can barely pick David Beckham out of a lineup, much less care about the state of American soccer, but there are a few people (mainly me) that believe that MLS’ best (read: FC Dallas) could give a decent account of themselves in Europe’s top leagues.
So I took this question to my resident soccer expert Brian Kopinski, a former Londoner now living here in the states (in case you’re wondering he’s a Gooner.) We’ve previously discussed the Hoops earlier in the season and he’s caught a game or two on TiVo since then, so its fair to say he knows a little something about FC Dallas. But in all honesty his specialty is the English Premier League (or is it the Barclay’s Premier League, how does that work?) and every level down is a step or so outside of his comfort zone.
I asked him two questions about each of Europe’s premier leagues 1: Could FC Dallas beat the previous season’s (2006/7) worst, non-relegated side? 2: Could FC Dallas successfully fight off relegation in that league? I did not ask about MLS teams in general, although he did respond that way occasionally, every query revolved around the Hoops in specific.
English Premier League: Wigan Athletic F.C.
Brian
1: Could FC Dallas beat Wigan? Yes, you’re talking about one game. Wigan may have a little more talent but not so much more so that it couldn’t happen.
2: Could FC Dallas stay in the English Premier League? Not sure, if they forgo the other competitions and only focused on staying up I’d give them maybe a 40% chance. Not sure if they have the depth to ever have a meaningful stay though.
Me
1: Could FC Dallas beat Wigan? Yes
2: Could FC Dallas stay in the English Premier League? Until listening to Brian I was convinced FC Dallas could be one of those perpetual yo-yo teams that drops down to the Championship one year and comes back to the Premiership a year or so later. But no team just renounces a chance at the FA Cup or the Carling Cup (especially not those at the bottom) and I don’t think the Hoops have the depth to compete a full season over multiple competitions, 15 or 16 solid players are just not enough. No.
Spanish La Liga: Athletic Bilbao
Brian
1: Could FC Dallas beat Athletic Bilbao? In this age of globalization FC Dallas just may have enough talent to overcome a well trained team of players from only one region of the world. The style differences in the Spanish game would make a really tough go of it, but its one game, so maybe.
2: Could FC Dallas stay in La Liga? Absolutely not, the style of play is just too different. What separates the English game and the MLS is speed and talent, but in Spain there are also stylistic differences that make a full season of La Liga too much for FC Dallas.
Me
1: Could FC Dallas beat Athletic Bilbao? Out of all the teams discussed on this list, Athletic Bilbao would provide the toughest match up because of the style of play. But of course I think the Hoops could win this game.
2: Could FC Dallas stay in La Liga? Here’s a note, Brian thinks that the EPL is the world’s best football league; I believe that while the EPL may have stronger teams on top, top to bottom La Liga is actually a stronger league. So that combined with the style of the Spanish game leads me to believe that FC Dallas would have no hope in La Liga.
Italian Serie A: Torino F.C.
Brian
1: Yes, this is doable.
2: Here’s where the American style of play might actually be most effective. The Italian league is filled with very intelligent, very cagey players. And while an American team may not have the soccer IQ or the technical training to compete on those terms I think they could outwork enough bottom to mid-table clubs to stay up, but again they would have to forgo any domestic cups. Low salary caps prevent teams from acquiring any real depth.
Me
1: Yes, Juan Toja could lead the Hoops to victory.
2: Europeans regularly say that American soccer players may lack technical skill but their fitness is world class. FC Dallas doesn’t have the depth to sustain a Serie A run while taking on a ton of injuries, but barring that, I believe they’d stay.
German Bundesliga: VfL Wolfsburg
Brian
1: Yes
2: Not sure; 40% maybe, German defenses would be pretty tough for an MLS team to breakdown
Me
1: Yes
2: If Carlos Ruiz finds his form and is not just effective at holding a defenses attention then it could be done. But without an in-form Ruiz I’d give it a 50/50 chance.
French Ligue 1: Valenciennes F.C.
Brian
1: Yes
2: They would stay up, they wouldn’t do much, but they would stay up.
Me
1: Yes
2: I don’t want to get into my “I don’t like France” rant here, but I figure I should make it known so you realize my bias. But I think FC Dallas could stay in Lique 1.
Scottish Premier League: St. Mirren F.C.
Brian
1: Yes
2: On a good year they could possibly be a mid-table team, but more realistically they wouldn’t have too much trouble staying up. This is not to say the Scottish league is that bad, more that it’s just conducive to the MLS style of play.
Me
1: Yes
2: Brian is not a Hoop fan, but I am, so I’m going to say that on the odd year (maybe once a decade) FC Dallas could actually compete for a European berth. You’re going to call me crazy I know, but I didn’t say they would get it either, I just said they could make a run at a European spot. That is of course if FC Dallas as presently constituted wasn’t subjected to the MLS salary cap rules that promote parity and break-up teams after a few years.
Dutch Eredivisie: S.B.V. Excelsior
Brian
1: Yes
2: There is a lot of young talent in this league, but young talent makes mistakes. FC Dallas could take advantage of enough of them to stay up; as long as it doesn’t come down to a goal differential tie-breaker on the final day because FC Dallas will get run over a couple times a season by a few in-form sides.
Me
1: Yes
2: Some of these clubs actually play to smaller crowds than MLS teams. But the top of this league is fairly strong and while I wouldn’t expect the Hoops to ever win this league I don’t think they’d have too much trouble staying up.
Portuguese Liga: Vitoria Setubal
Brian
1: Yes
2: I know the teams at the top of this league are pretty good, but I’m not so sure about the bottom. FC Dallas would probably have enough to stay up, even though the style of play would be different.
Me
1: Yes
2: Outside of FC Porto, Sporting Lisbon and Benfica I honestly have never heard of most of these teams (Naval 1º Maio?) If I say “yes” someone is going to call me arrogant for saying FC Dallas can beat sides that I know nothing about. If I say “no” someone is going to say I don’t believe in my team or possibly something else that doesn’t immediately come to mind. I’m not going to not answer the question though, so at risk of being declared a typical arrogant American, I’m going to say “yes, FC Dallas could stay up.”
This is all subjective I know and there are many, many factors standing in the way of ever taking this outside of a mere philosophical argument; even the idea of just one game, one time is almost logistically impossible. This is just one man’s biased opinion and since I’m sure someone is going to fire insults at me today in Dallas the FC will stand for “Firing may Commence.”
HOOPS PRIDE!
Category: Game Analysis
Tags: Athletic Bilbao, Bundesliga, Dutch Eredivisie, English Premier League, Excelsior, Game Analysis, La Liga, Ligue 1, Portuguese Liga, Scottish Premier League, Serie A, St. Mirren, Torino, Valenciennes, Vfl Wolfsburg, Vitoria Setubal, WiganSubscribe
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Comments
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In the Premiership, by the 10th match FC Dallas would be run ragged. By the 20th, they’d be struggling to get draws at home. By the 30th, they’d be lucky to be losing by just one goal. And by the 38th, they’d struggle at home against teams using players that were reserves at the start of the season. There’s no comparison, if you can’t watch an MLS match and then watch an EPL match and tell which league has faster, quicker, more creative players with higher football IQs than you suffer from a severe case of cognitive dissonance.
Posted from
United States
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Okay okay. You knew this was going to stir discussion and I’m fresh of a rant about how we Portuguese need to stand up and show the world just how quality our league is. I don’t understand your comment regarding the fact that “you’ve never heard of the teams” after the top 3. Does your lack of familiarity with the league simply disallow you from forming a solid opinion or are you basing your argument on the premise that since you’ve never heard of them they must be mediocre or worse? I sincerely hope the latter is not the case, because it would just sound extremely pompous and very “American” of you (relax, I’m American too). In all honestly, Dallas probably draws more per game than a number of Portuguese stadiums could even hold (and probably more than a number of teams draw period). Since I watch the games and can give a more informed opinion on it, I’d say that Dallas could actually play with a number of the teams in the Portuguese Liga. If I had to guess, on an “up” year, they could even go so far as to be bottom of the top half (8th), but on a down year they could just as easily be relegated since the point differential between the middle and bottom is so razor thin. Awesome discussion topic though. And don’t worry if the insults fly at you, at least you had the stones to put something like this out there and take whatever may come your way. Enjoy the Labor Day weekend.
Posted from
United States -
I can only really speak to the SPL part of this argument. Could FC Dallas beat St. Mirren in a one-off? Absolutely. Could they stay up in the SPL? (12 teams, 1 relegation spot) - Yes, I think they could. I would put FC Dallas on par with a mid-table SPL team, someone like Kilmarnock or Dundee United. The trouble with your European argument has to do with the number of European spots given to Scotland right now. The SPL has only four spots - two Champions League to the #1 and #2. FC Dallas could in no way compete with the Old Firm over a 38-match season, so these are out. That leaves two UEFA Cup spots, one for the third-place and one for the Scottish Cup winner. I really don’t think they’re a third-place team in the SPL, but I’d give them a shot at a back-door Scottish Cup spot like Dunfermline got last season, where the loser of the final gets a spot because the winner’s already qualified. Not out of the realm of possibility.
Posted from
United Kingdom -
I’ve occasionally seen plays in the premier league that if they were MLS teams and an Englisman were watching it the MLS would get hammered for being ‘pub-league’.
I believe pretty much that the MLS all-star and MLS all-star B (combined as on team) would survive in all Euro leagues and push for Europe in most; and that most teams would be competitve if they found some magic pill that made the starting eleven always healthy. But the best (DC, NE, Dallas, Hou) teams in MLS have their starting eleven, 4 or 5 bench players who are a slight step down but can do the job and a bunch of guys on the roster who are cheap and have unrealised potential but aren’t that good now and will probably never be good enough. The worst teams (RSL, LA) have only 4 or 5 players that are any good at all. You’d have to be able to upgrade on down the bench (no one better than the 1st 11 but maybe a couple more players on par with them and more of the guys who can do the job) in order to be competitve across the season.
Posted from
United States -
Too bad there is not a good tournament with the best teams in the world and a ‘really big’ prize to answer some of these questions… I’d watch! All global leagues represented with at least one team…
Posted from
United States -
Prize would need to be really big so all teams participated
Posted from
United States -
Yeah, the club world cup could use some re-working. I’d like to see it be more like the actual world cup, with more teams participating and a group stage, but I just don’t see it happening. Between their leagues, cups, and continental champions leagues, it would take a lot of cash to convince top teams to devote that sort of time to a tourney.
Posted from
United Kingdom -
Well, this is a very interesting discussion.
I’ll keep myself to the Ligue 1 part, although I hope Sam, Inara, Massaer, Julien, Chris and Come will also give their thoughts on this question.
I think that over one game, Dallas could beat Valenciennes 50% of the time. Over two legs, however, I think that Valenciennes would beat Dallas three times out of four. Valenciennes aren’t full of big names, but they are a side that is able to pull back 2 or 3 goals to win over two legs. Savidan and Audel are able strikers (Savidan was 2nd best striker last season, and Audel is currently best striker), and although Penneteau isn’t a match-winner, Ouaddou and Sommeil are seasoned defenders.
Over a whole season, I think that Dallas would go down two times out of three. I’m not one to think that low-Ligue 1 sides are strong, but from 11th to 17th, there were only 6 points. Nantes, Sedan and Troyes, the three teams that were relegated last season, weren’t “just” teams that played badly. Sedan was the most regular scorer in the league, Troyes had one of the most pleasing playing styles (and worst attackers), and Nantes called on big-name Barthez to save them, without success. If Dallas survives, then they’d be 17th or 16th, because American sides don’t play the same style of football that French sides do : too rough on challenges (French referees would send off Dallas players every 2 games), not enough defensive solidity (French sides start games with the intention of not conceding a goal), and finally, Dallas use a playmaker (Toja), that any french side would just keep at bay with a strong defensive midfielder, thus breaking Dallas’ playing style, since Dallas don’t have “another” playmaker…
Posted from
France -
i’d like to see you do this for the two relevant leagues in this hemisphere as well. i’m pretty sure they’d stay up at least in the mexican league, i don’t know anything about the argentina league except that it’s an amazing farm system and people get killed like it’s no one’s business.
Posted from
United States -
I’ve never seen an FC Dallas match, so I can’t argue about whether they could stay in the Bundesliga or not, but I would want them to beat Wolfsburg as Wolfsburg deserves to lose matches. Although it would be considerably more difficult this season as they just decided to spent €27m on a new squad.
About the tough German defenses: maybe that’s just a myth. The Bundesliga continuously produces the highest average goals-per-match ratio of the top 5 leagues in Europe. And you could argue that this rather points at a bad defense rather than a good offense.
Posted from
Germany -
Man, I’m tired of seeing people not give Ligue 1 the credit it deserves. Don’t look at Toulouse: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, their appearance in the UCL was a waste.
If you ask me, Ligue 1 is the best league for young talent. Look at all the players that have been scoped out by bigger leagues in the past few years: Sagna, Gourcuff, Kaboul, Taraabt, Ribéry, Faubert, Mavuba, the list goes on. If these guys stay one or two seasons longer in France, L1 would be among the top 3.
As for how Dallas would do in a season, they might stay up but I wouldn’t put it so casually.
Especially this year, Ligue 1 is very, very strong. Take any side and you’ll see there’s lots to offer. Clubs that people have pegged for relegation (Caen, Strasbourg, Nancy) all have great players, like Gouffran, Renteria and Youssouf Hadji.
The likes of Alvarez, Ruiz and Goodson wouldn’t be a symbol of fear around the league, let me tell you. Brian Carroll of DC had a tryout with Marseille last summer, and was sent home after just two or three days.
But I guess we’ll never know.
Posted from
Canada -
The reason the World Cup has become so much more competitive overall is the talent levels worldwide are equalizing so that most teams are good enough to beat anyone in the kind of one off games so common in cup competitions. However, the reason that teams like Brazil, Italy and so on are usually in the finals and semifinals is that they have superior depth of talent over the course of the tournament.
The difference between top MLS teams (Dallas, Revs, DC United) and mid level European teams has mainly to do with depth.
Dempsey for example was a star in MLS and may yet be one in the Barclays PL but he will have to fight off a couple of players just get a start or significant playing time.
If MLS teams had the kind of financial wherewithal to pay and keep 25-30 players like the mid table teams in the European leagues mentioned, then I believe they could compete. For one thing they would have that internal competition for places that keeps players sharp. For another thing it would help them with the inevitable injuries. Look at how thin the Galaxy proved to be.
I’m not convinced the stylistic differences mentioned by Brian would be so much of a factor because, it the MLS teams are good enough, then their style will prove to be a problem for the European teams to play against. It isn’t the system, its how good the players are and how well they execute the system they play in. Chelsea might be stylistically much more sophisticated than the 1968 Manchester United European Cup winners but I bet you Best, Charlton and company (especially if they had Law healthy) would rip them up.
Posted from
United States -
John, I’m a Man U fan, but I know that the class of ‘68 wouldn’t beat today’s Chelsa, Liverpool or Arsenal.
Best might be the only player to be a proper danger, in fact. Football has just become so much more physical. Charlton used to run about 3 miles a game… Nowdays almost every Premier League player runs at least 6 miles a game, and some manage to get close to 10 miles a game. Law was quick, but compared to defenders’ pace nowdays, he’d have been unable to get unmarked.
On a technical level too, players that are considered “not very” technical could probably be some of the best dribblers in the 60s…
Football has gone a long way since Man U trained only with 5-a-sides and won a European Cup… If any club trained like that nowdays, they’d be knocked out in their first matches. Set-pieces weren’t trained, tactical positioning was ignored, and there was almost no physical preparation. That was football back then. And no doubt that Man U’s side in 1999 would win by a good margin over Man U’s 1968 side…
Posted from
France
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